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Agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. Neither are agnostic and Christian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raivu
Gnosticism references what you know.
Theism references what you believe.
Everyone is one of thing from both categories. Agnostic or gnostic and atheist or theist. Although I think there are some more groups for theism, like pantheism, self-worship, etc., etc.
I think anyone who isn't agnostic is only fooling themselves. Almost all atheists are agnostic.
Ideally, free will means evil exists? I don't see how you can call evil ideal. Those seem like rather mutually exclusive terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakonid
You're presuming my argument is that good and evil are dichotomous -- black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL0V3R
The alternative position, which I agree with, is that good and evil are grayscale. It can be anywhere on the scale.
However, your position that just because some actions can fall in the gray middle means that no actions can fall on the good or evil sides of the scale is incorrect.
it means what you consider evil exist. I don't see how they are exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
He doesn't, but it does benefit for me or anyone to make the "leap of faith" that a god exists given absolutely no objective foundation for such a belief. The reason people make that "leap of faith" is the presumption that some god is good and that we owe that god that leap of faith in gratitude for our existence. If god is not good, we do not owe that god any such thing, and making the leap of faith of a god's existence in the first place is justified. If god isn't good, why bother believing in a god without first having evidence of a god? All supposed evidence of a "good god" is of one who, in practice through objective observation, is not good, thus is not evidence of a good god. So there is no evidence for a good god, there is justification for a leap of faith, so there is no reason to believe in the first place. >thread title
Evidence of God/gods:
Every religious text
Everything on earth
How are those evidence of God/gods?Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
I think the fact that there are so many conflicting religious texts is evidence of how religious texts aren't evidence.
My new book:Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
Congratulations, there's now evidence that Zelda Legend of Link may or may not have existed. There's evidence, sure, but no one knows if it's fictitious or not, and no one has any proof of the people writing it. Like, right now, I could have had my friend come to the computer and write that, even though I'm posting it now.Quote:
Hello all, I am the Zelda Legend of Link.
I declare: No one may use TI-84 Plus - Silver Edition calculators anymore.
When two conflict, it doesn't mean either or any more true or less true. Some texts even have conflicting accounts in their own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
was written by human beings and then collected and edited repeatedly for hundreds of years by other human begins.Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
They aren't histories, some are presented that way in their writing and some faiths use them that way, but they aren't.
I used to be a Christian. I was never extremely faithful, but I lived with people who were. I went to church, said Grace, had Bible studies at home on Sundays, yadda-yadda. I no longer identify as a Christian, not after all the shit I've seen from self-proclaimed Christians. I would like to believe that if there is a "higher power" that I owe my existence to, he would not be so cruel as to allow his devout followers to spread so much hatred, discrimination, and hypocrisy all over the planet while they are declaring that their religion and their God is one of love and acceptance. I would like to believe that he would not find it necessary to allow my sister to suffer tremendous pain her entire 25 years of life, then give her cancer, and then kill her off with a severe allergic reaction to prescription medication for the Flu ... on the Mayan Apocalypse. No, it is not okay that she died because "God has a plan" for her, or because through her death I will better understand Jesus' teachings, or because who the hell knows. It is not cool to say "I pray that she was a Christian."
Certain religions seem to be more about people trying to make themselves feel better about how shitty life is.
I do not want to believe in a god that will damn a person's soul to an eternity in Hell just because they didn't believe in him. ...Or just because they took it up the butt from another dude, or because they enjoyed sex. How self-centered is that? That is the type of person we are encouraged to avoid growing up like.
Maybe the Greek pantheon of gods and goddesses is the real deal. Maybe the Egyptian, or the Japanese. Shit, maybe they're all real, even the Christian God, and they're playing a big ole game to see which one of them can get the most followers. Like The Sims. You can either involve yourself or just sit back, crack open a cold one, and watch the idiocy unfold.
All regions are about that, or at least in their execution by man.Quote:
Originally Posted by claricia
Religions are stupid. Religion itself is not.
Your understanding of Christianity is saddening and very "stereotypical".
What I learned about Christianity, I learned through first-hand experience. I do not profess or pretend to have a deep understanding of the religion. There are too many sects with too many conflicting teachings. What I mentioned are the behaviours of the Christians I have interacted with throughout my life, as well as the beliefs of the Christians around me now. It may be stereotypical, but that is the way it is. I've met a fair share of Christians who were not batshit insane or on the fast train to Nuttyville, but they're outnumbered.
I do apologize. Religion is a bit of a touchy subject for me.
I disagree (this may be biased because I'm catholic) but most Christians I met never tell me only till like months after I've known them.Quote:
Originally Posted by claricia
I'm not really sure how to respond to this. When I said religious text I didn't specifically mean books. Many "texts" were at one point oral tradition. Also I never mentioned history but you're wrong there, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by C0FFINCASE
It's really disrespectful and frankly ignorant to generalize all religions like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by C0FFINCASE
On another note, it's interesting to observe people say how ignorant religious people are while atheists are the ones all over TV trying to make people take down Xmas decorations etc
It literally means that at least one of them is not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
"God does not exist" and "God does exist" cannot both me true. In order for one to be true, the other has to be "less true" (or to put it more appropriately, false).
When one religion says there are 10 gods, and another religion says there is exactly 1 god, they cannot both be true by the verify definition of true.
Nor are religious texts even remotely evidence of the existence of a god to begin with any more than the Harry Potter books are evidence of Harry Potter's existence.
Ever heard "Judith" by A Perfect Circle? It's a true story about the lead singer's mother, a devout Christian, who died of cancer and his having a similar reaction as you. Same person 10,000 Wings by Tool is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by claricia
Pretty much every religion. It gets worse in that these religions establish personal gods in order for people to feel better about how shitty they are.Quote:
Certain religions seem to be more about people trying to make themselves feel better about how shitty life is.
^Quote:
That is the type of person we are encouraged to avoid growing up like.
lol what?Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
Atheist's protest of holiday decorations forces Santa Monica to cancel Christmas | Mail OnlineQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Do you get pleasure out of telling people their religion is false?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
1) Daily Mail, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
2) one person
3) It is literally unconstitutional for the town to put up those decorations.
4) Theists protest these decorations for the exact same reasons.
5) "CANCEL Christmas"? Really?
6) How at all is this analogous to how ignorant religious people are?
7) QQ
It really seems like the point you were trying to make is "I don't like how atheists make government institutions uphold the Constitution," but your segue didn't make sense.
I get pleasure out of educating people. It's not about whether or not they believe their religion is false. It's about their avoiding cognitive dissonance and ignorance when they decide to not only dedicate their lives to something, which they by all means have the right to do for any reason, but attempt to push it onto other people through social and legal repercussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
Abortion is debated because your God says so. Homosexual marriage is illegal because your God says so. Our entire judicial and rehabilitation systems are designed around the dichotomous religious system that people must be categorized into good or bad groups with the only means of transition being religious repentance, and I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. When ignorant beliefs have real world consequences, they cease to be just beliefs, and I cease not caring.
There are a few places where things aren't specifically laid out in that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
Quote:
Originally Posted by -0- D i o r -0-
Religion is fake. People themselves created the idea of religion as well as the idea of a god, or gods. They created "god" as someone to blame something on and reason with. They needed reasons for why certain things happen, the masses needed to be controlled. Therefore, god was created. You can easily prove god to be non-existant by science. This may sound ignorant but for any of you believing that some "big man up there in the sky" created everything we see and know, and that heaven awaits you at your death, that's simply preposterous. (Some people really do think this, my cousins in Texas are perfect examples.) Even be it you don't think it's a man. A woman, or a thing, whatever you thing it is. How can you possibly think that someone created everything we see and know?
Why I say religion is fake is because all and every single thing you believe can be proven false by scientific fact. What I would like to know is how and why anyone could possibly think a single person created all that you see and know. The world and the universe itself. How is that at all possible? How can you explain scientific theories like evolution(which are obviously true) to creationists? You don't. They simply don't use simple logic when they think of things like this. A lot of them will tell you evolution isn't real, it's false. And any answer they give you explaining how it doesn't exist, simply won't use logic at all. Perhaps they will cite their religious text. The bible says the earth is 6000 years old. As stupid as this sounds, a lot of people actually believe it. You can really use simple logic (not science at all) to prove god does not exist. You can also use simple logic to prove practically everything any religion says is true to be false.
Think about this:
-Christians believe their God is omniscient and knows everything, including everything that has happened and will happen, as well as every thought your mind creates before you think it. If that's the case, there is no "free will."
-They also believe their God is omnipotent, and can do anything. Problem is, if their God can do anything but doesn't lift a finger to stop all the disasters, massacres and wars that have happened, are happening now and will happen in the future, their God is also a psychopath who enjoys watching our misery.
-However, if the Christian God is not omniscient or omnipotent... well, in that case their God is not a "god" and doesn't exist.
I'm not saying you're religion is bad, or evil that you believe in it. But it is fake, in my opinion at the least. You believe in whatever you want, I'm not trying to change how you believe, I'm simply telling you what I do. Do what you want.
My very religious parents suggested I read The Stand by James Michener. It is a historical fiction showing the possible evolution of religion, with (as far as I know) many accurate details.
All this showed me is that religions seem to be founded on bullshit... simply a way to explain the things that just plain don't make sense.
I also refuse to believe in any religion that thinks that is is acceptable to abuse and belittle members of other religions.
I identify as agnostic. I dont know if there's a higher power. There might be. But I could never be sure enough in my decision of which higher power I believe in. I could never bring myself to say "I know I'm right about my god and you're wrong about yours, so you're going to hell."
Edit : I can say that I am offended by anyone intolerant. The man in the previously linked article, who posted an anti-theist poster next to the nativity scene, is just an asshole. No matter your religion or beliefs, you should always respect the beliefs of others. Doesn't matter if you think they are mislead in their ways. If you want to try and have a rational conversation with them to try and convince them, go ahead. But we all know how most religious people are... Too stubborn to change. So let them be. Leave them in peace. Are you REALLY offended or hurt by a nativity scene? A cross? A religious billboard? That's freedom of expression.
So is putting that poster up. So here you stand, each group with equal rights (Regarding free speech and expression) and yet it always seems to be the athiest who will do his best to ruin a religious persons day.
I don't know what to call myself.
I'm that person who is unsure about their beliefs and may at times think about there being some sort of 'higher being' but that being not necessarily the 'God/s' everyone talks about.
My perspectives on life and the world have never changed drastically; I've either gained views or had some perspectives widened or slightly influenced by others.
I don't know whether I believe in life after death. I severely question yet cannot at all really think of what happens after death.
I've seen ghosts before, on very very rare occasions, but just the few who sometimes stick around. I don't expect anyone to believe me, as I don't usually ever believe that which I don't see. I've only ever met one other person who has truly ever seen what I can.
I don't understand what exactly happens. Is there some sort of limbo of vast inexplicable space the dead all float around in; do we just go kapoot and have absolutely everything end if we've not become some sort of paranormal being?
If there are ghosts is there a 'God'?
Once my step-mother tried to convince me that if there was any sort of afterlife then there had to be a 'God'.
Though I never thought so, I don't really understand why there must be.
I barely even remember her reasoning at all.
What is 'God'?
Though I agree, I wouldn't follow, worship, or dedicate myself to anyone who allowed immorality or terrible evils.
That's me, I know several others who would attempt to convince me that he simply just can't intervene and halt all evil doings or simply stop everything immoral in the world.
I don't really know. I'm typing and not reading what I've written.
Agnostic deism?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesparia
Same thing that happened before you were born.Quote:
cannot at all really think of what happens after death.
Then don't worship him. I can't halt all evil doings in the world either, but I'm not going around demanding dedication.Quote:
That's me, I know several others who would attempt to convince me that he simply just can't intervene and halt all evil doings or simply stop everything immoral in the world.
That sounds about right, I feel like I'm learning so many new terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
Thinking about that slightly confuses me, it leads me into thinking about rebirth and whatnot. But I believe I get what you're trying to say?
I don't, I use to always have this asian girl knock on my door several times a month with a bible and pamphlets. It was quite irritating.
I wish I could halt evil doings.Quote:
I can't halt all evil doings in the world
There are so many things in this world I wish just didn't exist.
My apartment complex kicks them off the property. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesparia
Be a cop or a politician, and don't sell out.Quote:
I wish I could halt evil doings.
There are so many things in this world I wish just didn't exist.
You're lucky, my whole family has gotten use to it and we just hush up until they go away. We've learned that if you don't answer their knocks for a month or a few, they stop coming by for a while. QQQuote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
I'd be tempted to be a cop, because I'm especially bothered by several crimes I see being committed or hear about. To be able to intervene and prevent or stop them, augh.
I would not sell out if I became either.
I'm going to get off topic.
Spoiler:Sometimes I hate humanity, or at least a large majority of it. I'm currently watching the news, right now it's on paid murders.
Husbands trying to get their wives killed, wives trying to kill off their husbands.
That's what they all say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesparia
That's true, saying things is much easier than actually doing things after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief
I hope that if I did become a cop I wouldn't become corrupted the same way as 'they' all do.
I don't classify myself. But My battle is I was raised in a rather religious house. But I don't see how god is all caring, kind and loving, and sending you to hell over stupid things. So, seeing as I'm stuck in the religious house again, I go to Church and smile and nod, and not care.
I don't believe in a lot of the whole religion business but I do believe we're all connected spiritually and can feed off of eachother's energies.
Skimmed thought your post and I agree with you but I never really have been religious although I have gone to church with an ex girlfriend and I dreaded it cause all the stuff they would say sounds like bull crap that is just said to keep you in a "positive" mood witch I understand alters what you do like if you believe you can do something then you will type of thing. Also all the science and stuff I have learned just out weighs everything that I have learned when I went to church.
Once someone proves to me that god exists, I'll see if I can change my mind.
God no but deva yes btw im a buddhist.Quote:
Originally Posted by droko5
Thank you all for a great reading! That was a good debate! :P
i haven't read every last post but i'd like to chime in with something ive posted elsewhere previously:
to clarify, people can believe in a god without being religious, i.e. 'worshiping' or dedicating their life to him.Quote:
faith and religion are two different things, religion being the foundation for faith, but your beliefs can be individualized to what you agree and disagree with. i dont completely agree with religion, but i think everyone should be respected for their faith as long as they return the respect.
every time i see a thread or discussion debating which faith (or lack thereof) is the correct stance, it pains me because both sides are at an impasse. what are you trying to accomplish in telling someone why you do or do not believe in a deity (or several deities)? we as humans do not possess the knowledge to be certain of these types of things. stick to what you believe in and move on.
edit:
i realize that im replying to something that is now very old, so ive no idea the status on those involved in this disagreement, but this irks me a great deal. he specifically stated that he doesn't really feel like he's atheist and you assume him to be one. faith is not a tangible thing and it varies greatly from person to person, you dont get to label other people for their beliefs- the only person who gets any say in what his beliefs are, is himself. all you really did was prove his point, if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEchief/cringeQuote:
Originally Posted by 323
So you annoy even yourself?
what i learned that all religious texts where created by mankind.
any and all such knowledge passed down are taken out of context and are far from literal due to the fact that those languages are dead and
translation of such "holy" texts are incorrect. all Christian bibles are different there is to many different documents to prove which religion is correct.
to kill the debate that the "bible" was written by god was wrong. i don't know why people think it was when the bible contradicts its self in the manner
of abortions. killing is a sin and killing of a mixed race baby before its born is okay and it allows for the murders and killings of innocent people that didn't believe in your religion.
if that is terribly wrong....then who is right to say it isn't because its in the bible. :T