Health Care

[C0FFINCASE]

So how do you feel about this reform? We'll be the ones paying for it all.

Last night health care reform is well on its way to being passed.

Some prominent issues to consider:

Votes were obtained behind close doors via arm twisting and deals.

The current version of the bill was not read by any one, it was printed only 72 hours ago today.

People begin paying taxes now but see no results for two years.

Medicare and Medicaid will be expanded to include most people while its budget is cut.

The bill included several things that don't have any thing to do with health care and since no one got to read it before the vote who knows what we just agreed to, i.e. Student Loans were taken over by the government and now if you have a loan you'll be charged a ton of money yo pay for health care.

Taxes are about to go up, particularly the income tax.

The taxes to pay for this bill will cut the deficit by 100 billion dollars, but only after adding 940 billion dollars to that. And it only after if we cut the medicare and medicaid and pay doctors less.

Their is an obvious opposition to the bill that was ignored.

38 states have declared the bill unconstitutional and are banding together and taking this to court to get it repealed.

[Raivu]

ok. I'm on Medicare and I know nothing about any of this.

What changes are going to happen to my healthcare?

[Souleater]

I get free health insurance so Idont really care. And it is already paid for by the government. So the fact that Obama is trying to make health care more accessable is good, how he is doing it and why he is doing it is all wrong.

I dont support it because of the way our economy is right now.

[C0FFINCASE]

ok. I'm on Medicare and I know nothing about any of this.

What changes are going to happen to my healthcare?

You're about to get less care so someone else can get that same care and you're going to have to wait to wait for a few years to see a doctor. If you are on medicine you're going to most likely face a shortage once the programs kick in and then you may have less given to you despite needs. Also your medical needs will be evaluated on a cost effectiveness basis, ie if its cheaper for you to die than get treatment you die, but they won't take away that health care plan or the taxes that go along with you.

[Raivu]

You're about to get less care so someone else can get that same care and you're going to have to wait to wait for a few years to see a doctor. If you are on medicine you're going to most likely face a shortage once the programs kick in and then you may have less given to you despite needs. Also your medical needs will be evaluated on a cost effectiveness basis, ie if its cheaper for you to die than get treatment you die, but they won't take away that health care plan or the taxes that go along with you.

yeah, fuck that. *flips a table*

[CL0V3R]

Honestly Coffincase I'd agree with you more if your argument wasn't based on moral vs fact. This is america, there has always been underhanded deals to make things pass, so don't act like this is anything new. The main part of your argument I can't agree with is your are giving a lot of misinformation with your scare tactics like your comment towards Raivu. Part of me wonders if you actually understand the bill or are just one of those people who's watched zeitgeist one too many times.

The break down from my personal understanding is the following:

*More people will be eligible for Medicaid.
*There will be less money put into medicaid initially but there will be more taxes on families/people who make over 200-250k$ Income bracket. Part of that taxes is going to fund medicaid.
*People who before couldn't get insurance now can't be rejected due to various health problems when that part come into effect.
*Companies with over 50 employees will be forced to give their workers insurance or face a 2k fine.
*You will be eventually forced to get insurance by 2014.

Here is a link of the break down of the bill if anyone is interested:
When health care bill's provisions would take effect | McClatchy


Honestly if you want to talk about health care letting you die, before the bill was passed was a good example. The sick couldn't afford their bills for medical so instead of being able to seek help they wouldn't.

Quote from Eddie Hall
Hall says allowing people with pre-existing conditions to have access to healthcare sounds nice, but may end up with extraordinary costs. He said, "The day they can buy coverage and go in the next day and have the procedure done is going to run the cost out of the ceiling."


So prior to this most people couldn't just waltz in and get an expensive but necessary procedure done. Honestly this world is about money for the most part no one gives a shit about you, right now they'd sooner let you die anyways.

I've been rejected for health insurance myself due to being in that "high risk" category". I was so afraid to spend any money that I refused to go to the hospital until my boyfriend dragged me kicking and screaming. I knew we didn't have the money for it so I didn't want to go since I had been their three days ago. It turned out my appendix was about to burst and they missed it the first time I was dragged in their. (I'm lucky now even though I'm about 20k in debt for the first time I was there and they didn't fix anything. I was lucky enough to get on Ahcccs now so I can see a specialist for the first time in years.)

Also about not seeing any part of the taxes for two years, think about it. It will take a certain amount of money to put things in motion. With out that money you can't. Think of it just like you would if you were saving up money for a car. You don't have the money so you have to save it, it takes you two years but you finally have that down payment on the car you wanted.

I have to agree some parts of the bill are haphazard and seem kind of out their, but in the long run I suppose it's better than nothing.
I don't personally agree with idea of forcing everyone to get health insurance or facing a fine.


I think more of what we should focus on is the idea that the whole medical field is a joke. Honestly I can't see us fucking it up more than it already is.

In any case I'm not so sure how much you actually understand the bill before jumping on the "government is socialist plz" band wagon.

[cony]

You're about to get less care so someone else can get that same care and you're going to have to wait to wait for a few years to see a doctor. If you are on medicine you're going to most likely face a shortage once the programs kick in and then you may have less given to you despite needs. Also your medical needs will be evaluated on a cost effectiveness basis, ie if its cheaper for you to die than get treatment you die, but they won't take away that health care plan or the taxes that go along with you.

your blowing that a little out of prportion i think i mean the doctors have the hipocratic oath or whtever it is. i doubt they will let you die. they wont put in as much effort but they wont just let you die.

[C0FFINCASE]

your blowing that a little out of prportion i think i mean the doctors have the hipocratic oath or whtever it is. i doubt they will let you die. they wont put in as much effort but they wont just let you die.

Doctor's don't get to decide, the agencies the government sets up do and the Hippocratic oath is shit, its just a tradition they do, it means nothing.

[C0FFINCASE]

Honestly Coffincase I'd agree with you more if your argument wasn't based on moral vs fact. This is america, there has always been underhanded deals to make things pass, so don't act like this is anything new. The main part of your argument I can't agree with is your are giving a lot of misinformation with your scare tactics like your comment towards Raivu. Part of me wonders if you actually understand the bill or are just one of those people who's watched zeitgeist one too many times.

I understand the bill. I read it while I watched the vote. I understand it. An I've talked to lots of people about the effects of the way the bill will work and be paid for. My scare tactics are based in the fact I am afraid and angry.
An I'm so pissed that the conservatives are like "Well I support the spirit of the biil." I don't support any of it. If your poor and sick and can't afford treatment then hurry up and die.

[CL0V3R]

I understand the bill. I read it while I watched the vote. I understand it. An I've talked to lots of people about the effects of the way the bill will work and be paid for. My scare tactics are based in the fact I am afraid and angry.
An I'm so pissed that the conservatives are like "Well I support the spirit of the biil." I don't support any of it. If your poor and sick and can't afford treatment then hurry up and die.

So you're for people dying but against abortion?
That sounds a little backwards to me. ;x

Edit: Also you admit you're using scare tactics to make others see your point of view with out giving fact?
You're just as bad as the government. Lol

[C0FFINCASE]

So you're for people dying but against abortion?
That sounds a little backwards to me. ;x

Bay hasn't done any thing to deserve to die and should be given the chance, the lazy bastard who isn't working and want me to pay for him can just die as far as I'm concerned, f'in drain of society.

[CL0V3R]

Bay hasn't done any thing to deserve to die and should be given the chance, the lazy bastard who isn't working and want me to pay for him can just die as far as I'm concerned, f'in drain of society.

What about the people who have tried trk but can't because they are actually too sick?
They haven't done anything wrong.
Is it right to kill them too then?
If the baby is going to be born with a debilitating health problem and be a "drain on society", we should kill them as well then shouldn't we?

[Tatsuo]

Interesting debate that is occurring at the moment, I have to see this...haha...You guys know my stance on the newly passed bill, I feel that it will be a good thing in the long run.

[C0FFINCASE]

What about the people who have tried trk but can't because they are actually too sick?
They haven't done anything wrong.
Is it right to kill them too then?
If the baby is going to be born with a debilitating health problem and be a "drain on society", we should kill them as well then shouldn't we?

Should have taken better care of themselves, they had their shot and failed too bad.
Baby still hasn't failed yet. needs a shot. If the parents want to take care of it let them. No one but family should take care of anyone, and only if they want to. Forcing me to pay for you isn't fair and I won't do it.

[CL0V3R]

Should have taken better care of themselves, they had their shot and failed too bad.
Baby still hasn't failed yet. needs a shot. If the parents want to take care of it let them. No one but family should take care of anyone, and only if they want to. Forcing me to pay for you isn't fair and I won't do it.

Should have taken care of themselves? What if you're born with it?
They failed as soon as they were born then by your logic.
Then you're against the ideas of adoption then? Adoption agencies are funded by the government, you're paying for that. I think it'd make more sense then putting our tax dollars towards religious nonsense at least. I'm not religious but I'm paying for that am I not?

[C0FFINCASE]

Should have taken care of themselves? What if you're born with it?
They failed as soon as they were born then by your logic.
Then you're against the ideas of adoption then? Adoption agencies are funded by the government, you're paying for that. I think it'd make more sense then putting our tax dollars towards religious nonsense at least. I'm not religious but I'm paying for that am I not?

They do fail from birth but if the parents want to deal with it or religious organizations want to let them.
I support religious organizations running adoption agencies, I don't support government run ones.

[CL0V3R]

They do fail from birth but if the parents want to deal with it or religious organizations want to let them.
I support religious organizations running adoption agencies, I don't support government run ones.

Either way religious run or government run it's still coming out of our tax dollars.
So why not kill them then? What logic says is to keep the child alive, the child will more than likely end up on public health care, assuming the parents are too poor to afford the child. To you, as you've stated, feel all those people should just die, so why no just end it before it begins?
Saves everyone tax dollars doesn't it?

Your point is slightly hypocritical isn't it?

[C0FFINCASE]

Either way religious run or government run it's still coming out of our tax dollars.
So why not kill them then? What logic says is to keep the child alive, the child will more than likely end up on public health care, assuming the parents are too poor to afford the child. To you, as you've stated, feel all those people should just die, so why no just end it before it begins?
Saves everyone tax dollars doesn't it?

Your point is slightly hypocritical isn't it?

No, there are no tax dollars if a religion run the adoption houses and places for the children. It becomes private, if you wish to give them money you can but you aren't forced to. I don't want all people to die, i just don't want to pay for them and if them dying is the only to prevent having to do that then I want that, but just not paying for them works just as well.

[CL0V3R]

No, there are no tax dollars if a religion run the adoption houses and places for the children. It becomes private, if you wish to give them money you can but you aren't forced to. I don't want all people to die, i just don't want to pay for them and if them dying is the only to prevent having to do that then I want that, but just not paying for them works just as well.

Well that actually depends if they accept government donations, that's why there is/was a lawsuit about letting gays adopt children from religion run adoption centers.

I can understand people work for their money, but you're only really going to be hard taxed if you make over 200k a year, 250k if you're a family. If you make that much or your family does, well then I'm sure you can afford a little something.

[C0FFINCASE]

Well that actually depends if they accept government donations, that's why there is/was a lawsuit about letting gays adopt children from religion run adoption centers.

I can understand people work for their money, but you're only really going to be hard taxed if you make over 200k a year, 250k if you're a family. If you make that much or your family does, well then I'm sure you can afford a little something.

The government shouldn't fund religious organizations. I do think you have to consider that there is some religious things in the government because of the founding fathers but the bits that are there are to maintain some sort of legal morality which we need.

200k is a magic number Obama pulled out of his ass. They take 40 cents out of every dollar I make and when Obama they will take more. My father already pays 60 cents of every dollar he makes and now they want more.
It should not be your call or anyone else's to decide if I have something to spare it should be mine. I am not going to pay these new taxes. I will not do it and I will not pay the fines.
Truth be told I don't have anything to spare. I'm working my ass of to go to college and get by and now they want more. My father certainly can't spare any as he's now having to help me pay, has let me move back in, and is putting my sister through school still.

The issue is freedom really and the government should not tell me how much I can make and what to spend it on just so you can have health care. If you want health care work for it, special cases aren't the norm I don't care about them. Let the poor houses, run by religion, take care of them.

[Raivu]

o.o but I'm poor...

[C0FFINCASE]

o.o but I'm poor...

That's rough. But you can not be poor if you want to. Get a job, get three if you need to.
I'm a poor musician college student, that's next to being a hobo. I had to move back in with my parents and pay them rent. I do whatever work I can get and study hard so I can get a career and make more money, I'd rather not have to study and get two careers because Obama raises taxes to the point where my one career just gets me to break even.

[DarkEternity]

I get blue cross through my job but I'm totally opposed to the new HC bill. All its doing is causing more harm to the country and its citizens then helping it.
Obama's essentially making it so that if you're rich you live if your poor you're left to rot because you cant afford it.

[Onion]

Why doesn't Obama just fuse the US with Canada while he's ahead?

That wasn't a joke, btw.

~~~~~
On a serious matter, I am all for the health care bill because I think it will help out a lot in current times.

[C0FFINCASE]

On a serious matter, I am all for the health care bill because I think it will help out a lot in current times.

This is because you don't understand economic or have the ability to look at the current system and those like the one Obama is passing and see how that will work, and you obviously aren't fronting the bill(yet).

[C0FFINCASE]

Actually, economically speaking, it will help. "Take from the rich, give to the poor." The poor don't have to spend as much on health care, and can thus spend the money on other things. That's also not to mention people who can't get a job due to illnesses for which they can't get treatment due to the fact that they can't get a job to afford it. The rich who have enough to pay for health care still have enough to spend on other things. In a nutshell, the lower class is getting more to spend; while the spending of the upper class isn't going to change.

It works for the poor I'm sure. But since our economy is a bit more complex than rich/poor. More than just the rich pay. The rich, the middle class, the people between those two and the people between middle class and poor pay. Being in the group that has to pay for something for someone else is hardly fair to me. An the poor aren't getting money, they don't have health care you're giving it to them, and they continue on the way they are going. Economy wise we're adding 90 billion dollars to our debt at least and that after the 10 billion we take off in ten years by paying these taxes.

[sighkick]

Why would i want a health care bill that they woudn't user for their families...If Obama's not gonna use it then why would or should I

[Onion]

This is because you don't understand economic or have the ability to look at the current system and those like the one Obama is passing and see how that will work, and you obviously aren't fronting the bill(yet).

It seems like you're assuming a lot about my life; assuming that I don't know about the current economic situation; assuming that I don't live in and know about this era. Assuming is bad because you'll generally get your assumption wrong, like you just did. I know what I'm talking about when I say that this will help out, and I have reasons and support why it will work. So, next time, don't just reject my post and deny my lifestyle. You should be more opened towards others opinions.

The way the health care bill is, everyone pays, everyone gets treated. Hell, what could go wrong?

[C0FFINCASE]

It seems like you're assuming a lot about my life; assuming that I don't know about the current economic situation; assuming that I don't live in and know about this era. Assuming is bad because you'll generally get your assumption wrong, like you just did. I know what I'm talking about when I say that this will help out, and I have reasons and support why it will work. So, next time, don't just reject my post and deny my lifestyle. You should be more opened towards others opinions.

The way the health care bill is, everyone pays, everyone gets treated. Hell, what could go wrong?

I'm open to lots of thing. I'm not open to being rob so you get health care.
Everyone who wants healthcare should buy it themselves, if they can't afford it, tough. We ought to make it so the hospitals turn you down if you can't pay or have insurance either. F'in moochers
As to what could go wrong: placing the country into more debt, clogging a already over burdened systems of medicare and medicaid, that the quality of healthcare will decline, that the shortage of doctors is now never going to get better, that if its more cost effective for you o die then you get to die untreated, and the government is give unprecedented power of you and the door is open for more expansion and take over.

[C0FFINCASE]

Cite a study that shows that the healthcare of countries that have socialized healthcare is of less quality.
Stop saying "if it's more cost effective to die, then you die untreated," as if it's any different than your saying "anyone without enough money for treatment should die untreated." It's like you're arguing against yourself.

Britain, Switzerland, Soviet Union,N. Korea(well people don't leave N. Korea) and China have lower quality care than we did. They would come here for because of that. In general we have the best health care in the world because the free market system promotes higher standards. When you get more for being better, better is an objective. When you get the same no matter how good you are you no longer are motivated and your work quality suffers. People in Britain pull their own teeth in their garage because they can't see a dentist before their teeth rot.

No, if I'm pay for you and you die any way untreated I've lost money. If yo have to pay, can't and die then I've lost nothing. See how that one works?

[Onion]

I'm open to lots of thing. I'm not open to being rob so you get health care.
Everyone who wants healthcare should buy it themselves, if they can't afford it, tough. We ought to make it so the hospitals turn you down if you can't pay or have insurance either. F'in moochers
As to what could go wrong: placing the country into more debt, clogging a already over burdened systems of medicare and medicaid, that the quality of healthcare will decline, that the shortage of doctors is now never going to get better, that if its more cost effective for you o die then you get to die untreated, and the government is give unprecedented power of you and the door is open for more expansion and take over.

Wow, that's a nice way to think about want. Don't give a fuck, and just get what you want, and you're done. I'll be laughing when you go broke and can't afford insurance, and you'll need this. What if your family or friends got fired and couldn't find a job.

How would the country go into more debt? That really makes little to no sense. Also, it shouldn't affect the doctor situation greatly, it's practically the same, except they treat everyone now.

[Slash]

Actually, economically speaking, it will help. "Take from the rich, give to the poor." The poor don't have to spend as much on health care, and can thus spend the money on other things. That's also not to mention people who can't get a job due to illnesses for which they can't get treatment due to the fact that they can't get a job to afford it. The rich who have enough to pay for health care still have enough to spend on other things. In a nutshell, the lower class is getting more to spend; while the spending of the upper class isn't going to change.

No it doesn't.

The rich hire people. If they get less money, their employees get less in their paychecks and they might even have to fire some people. Also, a lot of the rich have huge house payments, car payments, etc. They get higher taxes, so then it will take them even longer to pay those off and and some might even have to resort to selling their stuff.

I don't like the thing where companies are required to give healthcare to their employees. I think that this rule should depend on how much that company makes each year. This law is really going to suck for family owned businesses.

[CL0V3R]

No it doesn't.

The rich hire people. If they get less money, their employees get less in their paychecks and they might even have to fire some people. Also, a lot of the rich have huge house payments, car payments, etc. They get higher taxes, so then it will take them even longer to pay those off and and some might even have to resort to selling their stuff.

I don't like the thing where companies are required to give healthcare to their employees. I think that this rule should depend on how much that company makes each year. This law is really going to suck for family owned businesses.

"Family owned businesses" Usually don't have 50+ people working for them. :/