Steam users add me

[GAMEchief]

I'll do you the honor of letting you be on my friend's list:
Steam Community :: ID :: Charles Stover

[Jah]

I already am.
And you are the one who added me
jk

[Artificial]

No.

I can't play with anyone who lives outside of Australia/NZ. That ping.
That, and the only game I tend to play is L4D2.
That, and I don't want you tarnishing my friends list.

Sorry bra.

[KainCantResetHisPass]

No.

I can't play with anyone who lives outside of Australia/NZ. That ping.
That, and the only game I tend to play is L4D2.
That, and I don't want you tarnishing my friends list.

Sorry bra.

Fix e-mail password resets you insufferable ******.

plz

[KainCantResetHisPass]

No.

I can't play with anyone who lives outside of Australia/NZ. That ping.
That, and the only game I tend to play is L4D2.
That, and I don't want you tarnishing my friends list.

Sorry bra.

Fix e-mail password resets you insufferable ******.

plz

[Artificial]

Fix e-mail password resets you insufferable ******.

plz

PM me what you want your password changed to.

[Jah]

PM me what you want your password changed to.

Please change it to

imsonothmophobicandcoolio

[The Unintelligible]

No.

I can't play with anyone who lives outside of Australia/NZ. That ping.
That, and the only game I tend to play is L4D2.
That, and I don't want you tarnishing my friends list.

Sorry bra.

lmao. win.

@chief: will be sure to as soon as I'm able to play Steam again (that should be in a few months).

[Jah]

lmao. win.

@chief: will be sure to as soon as I'm able to play Steam again (that should be in a few months).

oh that's why you were asking Jovan to buy you a PC ?

And I feel ya, about the crappy computers.

[The Unintelligible]

oh that's why you were asking Jovan to buy you a PC ?

And I feel ya, about the crappy computers.

no. lol. he isn't buying me a new PC. ever. i was asking because why the heck not. I might as well try my luck. Even though the odds of that actually happening is about 0%.

im either going to A. get a job. or B. wait until I receive one as a Christmas gift.

[Jah]

Lmao yeah, bro just freelance Freelancer.com - Hire Freelancers & Find Freelance Jobs Online
When i have enough skills i'm planning on doing that, you guys can probably start already.

[The Unintelligible]

im too n00b/unorthodox for something like uniform freelancing.

I prefer trk self-paced. Like the work I did for Princess Fluttershy here.

[GAMEchief]

No.

I can't play with anyone who lives outside of Australia/NZ. That ping.
That, and the only game I tend to play is L4D2.
That, and I don't want you tarnishing my friends list.

Sorry bra.

I don't want to play with you. I just want to harass you into giving me your TF2 items.

Or other similar Steam-esque trades. No ping in trade windows!

[GAMEchief]

im too n00b/unorthodox for something like uniform freelancing.

I prefer trk self-paced. Like the work I did for Princess Fluttershy here.

You can self-pace freelance. I bought my computer by writing scripts and then selling the rights to companies.
Sell some of your work. Or freelance. I'd recommend freelance anyway. Such easy money.

Also one of the easiest intro ways to making money and getting your name out there is to write articles. Programming websites need articles written, and they pay pretty well for them. At least over minimum wage. It's not a $20+/hour programming gig, but you also don't program much. It's mostly just writing. But it further pays for itself through name exposure. I've written maybe five articles for two websites, and I can't count how many people have e-mailed me after seeing them asking me to write a program for them. I don't remember what I got for the articles, just that it was over minimum wage. The gigs I got e-mailed as a result were $20-$40/hour.

But I mean, if you are just wanting a new computer, the writing gigs alone should solve that after just a few gigs. You generally get at least $100/article as an introduction price, and a few hundred if you've proven to draw traffic/be competent.

You should def freelance. Money's too good not to.

It would be too shittily stressful if that was your job and you had bills and shit, because there's no telling when the next job would come or how much it would pay. But for money on the side, it is amazing. It's not "I'm only making $200 this month. How will I pay rent?" It's "Hey, a spare $200 for just a few hours of work."

[The Unintelligible]

I've considered it, but I've also considered the fact that I'm a lazy, procrastinating slack-off. lol. Hence my reply to Jah.

Either way, I might try it out. Is the link Jah provided the way to go about it? I mean freelancing by definition is working independently for income, but I'd prefer something more compact if that makes sense.

[GAMEchief]

I've considered it, but I've also considered the fact that I'm a lazy, procrastinating slack-off. lol. Hence my reply to Jah.

Either way, I might try it out. Is the link Jah provided the way to go about it? I mean freelancing by definition is working independently for income, but I'd prefer something more compact if that makes sense.

I have no clue anything about Jah's link. I did freelance work for people I knew. It's all about connections.

If I were going to look for people I didn't know, I'd start with e-mailing article sites and write a few articles. That will get you exposure, and said sites are often willing to hire strangers for an article or two.

Sites on the other hand tend to have fees. Fuck that. Either you won't want to pay the fee, or the employer won't want to pay it. It decreases your income and the number of people willing to hire you. At the same time, you're in a pool of a shit ton of people who are more qualified to do the same job, and often for cheaper.

E-mailing an article website, not many people do that, you are often applying for the same income, and they are willing to hire as many people as are applying.

EDIT: "for people I knew" means online. Connections, bro. One person putting in a good word to a friend of theirs who happens to be hiring is better than a great resume. It can often even start you above the minimum payment for a new hiree.

[Artificial]

Don't listen to GAMEchief all that much - he's a PHP noob. Won't even use OOP. Psht.

I used to freelance years ago. It's not a bad way to hone your skills, but can be inscrutably annoying when you're having to go up against people from developing nations who are willing trk for $1-2/hr. Even though they're mostly low skilled workers, customers seldom can differentiate between the quality of work, and often just go with what's cheapest. What I've found far more profitable is approaching local companies and freelancing for them (you obviously have to go in to the office often, attend client meetings, make yourself available, etc.). I'm not sure how the market is like in the US, but around here you can easily command $60/hr for highend PHP development, and there's a shortage of highly skilled workers.

[The Unintelligible]

lol. I'm not really listening to GAMEchief in specific per se, I'm just entirely unfamiliar with this kind of thing so I was willingly open to any suggestions in general.

Thanks.

Also, I don't use PHP primarily--actually I probably don't use it all these days, but if I did, OOP would definitely be something I'd use. Cleaner, more organized and modular code is the way to go. As long as it isn't being forced down your throat (namely Java/C#).

[Artificial]

The one advantage of learning Java is that it does enforce good programming practice.

[The Unintelligible]

Yeah, aside from the explicit OOP use (that's how Java is structured). Using OOP for things that don't even necessarily require it? No thanks. Not in this (lazy) lifetime.

[Artificial]

Yeah, aside from the explicit OOP use (that's how Java is structured). Using OOP for things that don't even necessarily require it? No thanks. Not in this (lazy) lifetime.

If you don't want to use OOP, all you really have to do is encapsulate your code in to a class and use static methods. While technically OOP, you can choose to ignore all of its features. I also fail to see how being lazy would hinder you at all. If you were using any decent IDE, it would generate the skeleton code for you when you create a new file.

[The Unintelligible]

If you don't want to use OOP, all you really have to do is encapsulate your code in to a class and use static methods. While technically OOP, you can choose to ignore all of its features. I also fail to see how being lazy would hinder you at all. If you were using any decent IDE, it would generate the skeleton code for you when you create a new file.

I'm referring to its default paradigm. Being forced to explicitly define your code that way is more of a hassle than not. You also cannot choose to ignore all of its features realistically (that is unless you're applying the same logic as before. And even then, wouldn't that produce more bad habits than good? i.e. extra work/accommodation).

Being lazy was referring to being forced to condense almost all of your code in classes. That's more work for me. It's true that there are tools to compensate for that, but that's just more unnecessary boilerplate.

You were correct for the most part, Java just isn't really an ideal language if you don't like static programming languages and you want to be more expressive (though that's assuming you don't mind any of its other subjective and objective quirks).

[Artificial]

Each programming language has pros and cons. If you're looking to build a larger system, you ideally need to use OO (and any deliberate attempt not to is, in my mind just ridiculous. You'd have to present a pretty convincing use case). Otherwise, use a scripting language like Python - that's what they're there for.

[KainCantResetHisPass]

I pm'ed what I want my password changed to forever ago.

[The Unintelligible]

Stumbled across this video earlier by sheer coincidence

[Jah]

I pm'ed what I want my password changed to forever ago.

/.Sends all LGG to original account.

[GAMEchief]

Don't listen to GAMEchief all that much - he's a PHP noob. Won't even use OOP. Psht.

OOP sucks. I said it. Deal with it.
Especially in PHP.

I love objects in JavaScript, though. But PHP classes are rarely useful. IDK why that is. Maybe due to different needs between server-side and client-side functionality, or maybe the language as a whole. Don't know, don't care. But I use it where appropriate. Otherwise, it can fuck itself. Too many people default-to-OO, and it's dumb. The only OO I use in PHP is when I want it to be able to just copy-paste the file that incorporates multiple functions that rely on shared parameters from project to project. That is a situation that comes up way less often than OOP-lovers would care to admit.

I used to freelance years ago. It's not a bad way to hone your skills, but can be inscrutably annoying when you're having to go up against people from developing nations who are willing trk for $1-2/hr. Even though they're mostly low skilled workers, customers seldom can differentiate between the quality of work, and often just go with what's cheapest. What I've found far more profitable is approaching local companies and freelancing for them (you obviously have to go in to the office often, attend client meetings, make yourself available, etc.).

This is true. There is a lot of foreign competition. I actually got a job because the guy was racist and said he didn't want any Indian working on his website.
But the most important part is that employers don't know what the fuck about anything. Play your skills up. Almost every job I've got has been because I can make minuscule things sounds important.
"Why should you hire me? Well, because that other guy doesn't micro-optimize! My code is compatible with a wider variety of browsers."
I mean, just mention the things you do. When people ask what your skills are, most people answer as if you are talking to another programmer. "jQuery, PHP, HTML, CSS, [etc.]" Yeah, cool, you have four skills. Your competitor has four skills. So when they ask you what your skills are, break each of them down. Micro-optimize, send cache headers, gzip compress output to decrease page load time and bandwidth costs (you save $$$?! hired!), compress CSS/JS files, use XHTML for extensibility (which they won't even need), use standards compliance, use backwards compatibility. Wow, that is like over twice their skills already! You're too good.
Word up minuscule things. If they knew what you were talking about, they wouldn't need to hire you to begin with. And it's not entirely dishonest. It shows that you have a deep understanding of the languages involved. It's very likely if they told the other guy that they wanted the page cached (not that they'd often even know what that meant), he wouldn't know how to do that. Make it look like you know how to complete tasks that the average programmer can't.

And, again, the best thing about a writing gig to get you started is they don't tend to hire the average programming foreigner to do them, because it also requires an above-average comprehension of the English language.

But if you are applying outside of writing gigs (though useful in gigs too), play basic shit up.

I'm not sure how the market is like in the US, but around here you can easily command $60/hr for highend PHP development, and there's a shortage of highly skilled workers.

There's less of a shortage outside of Australia, but I also hear Australians make a lot more at every job because the cost of living is so much higher (everything seems to be more expensive there, so it only makes sense that income is higher as well for it to remain a non-depressed country).

[The Unintelligible]

OOP sucks. I said it. Deal with it.
Especially in PHP.

I love objects in JavaScript, though. But PHP classes are rarely useful. IDK why that is. Maybe due to different needs between server-side and client-side functionality, or maybe the language as a whole. Don't know, don't care. But I use it where appropriate. Otherwise, it can fuck itself. Too many people default-to-OO, and it's dumb. The only OO I use in PHP is when I want it to be able to just copy-paste the file that incorporates multiple functions that rely on shared parameters from project to project. That is a situation that comes up way less often than OOP-lovers would care to admit.

Please, stop. Just stop.

I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculously biased and misinformed statement. Those kind of statements only come from mediocre web developers who haven't ventured out of the web platform far enough to truly grasp the art of programming.

Objects and OOP are not the same thing. JavaScript is an OOP language so a lot of its structure consists of components from the OOP model. Using JavaScript objects does not equate to utilizing OOP. Objects belong in the category OOP, but alone are not what OOP entails. PHP just happens to have an OOP implementation, but that isn't its standard programming paradigm.

PHP classes are probably not useful to you because you probably don't write larger-scale applications. Typically server-side content would need more structure than the client-side. Maybe it's just the language as a whole. In which case, why not drop it? I can affirm that PHP sucks or rather it isn't worth it anyway.

While I can agree on often defaulting to OOP is probably ill-conceived, I profusely disagree that it sucks. As for your usage of OOP: that isn't OOP in itself . You seem to be describing generic modularization. Or at least that would also be apt for the task you mentioned.

OOP is mainly about organization. Organization is often needed in larger entities of code. So if you feel that way now, maybe you aren't diving into the more complex side of things.

P.S. This is coming from a guy who isn't too fond of OOP in general.

[Ethan]

Steam Community :: ID :: HG | BooT has no rights

Es me.

[Stapled]

Steam Community :: ID :: Nicki Minaj

[The Unintelligible]

Steam Community :: ID :: Nicki Minaj

why .

[Stapled]

why .

Why not?

[The Unintelligible]

Why not?

Nicki Minaj.

--

you a fan by chance?

[Artificial]

You're all still stuck in the past. While OOP was introduced in PHP 4 as a mere afterthought, OOP in PHP 5.4 is actually quite accomplished. And to build on what Unintelligble said, I agree that it is pointless to default to OOP (but nobody was making the claim otherwise), but to use that as a reason to say it sucks? Please.

Working on (even semi)large scale applications, to not use OOP would be ridiculous. You should start using an MVC framework like Yii to experience firsthand just how beneficial it is.

[Ethan]

Grr, I am Arti!

[The Unintelligible]

Grr, I am Arti!

Hear me roar!

[GAMEchief]

Please, stop. Just stop.

I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculously biased and misinformed statement. Those kind of statements only come from mediocre web developers who haven't ventured out of the web platform far enough to truly grasp the art of programming.

Those are not mutually inclusive things.
You're right, I do not come out of web development. I don't enjoy non-web development. The benefits of OOP outside of web development has no relevance to my opinion on it. I speak as a web programmer, not as a general programmer. I'm not going to use OOP in web development when it has no benefits in web development. Feel free to use it in other languages. I don't give a shit, 'cause I'm not using those languages, so there's no reason for me to comment on its appropriateness in them. But OOP sucks in languages like PHP.

PHP classes are probably not useful to you because you probably don't write larger-scale applications. Typically server-side content would need more structure than the client-side. Maybe it's just the language as a whole. In which case, why not drop it? I can affirm that PHP sucks or rather it isn't worth it anyway.

My larger-scale applications do use OOP. As I said, I use it when I write an extensible feature that I want to port between projects. Most larger-scale applications share these. My issue is people who default to OOP and use it when it isn't remotely necessary or beneficial.

OOP is mainly about organization. Organization is often needed in larger entities of code. So if you feel that way now, maybe you aren't diving into the more complex side of things.

Or I can organize things fine without OOP, and I don't see why others wouldn't be able to as well.

[The Unintelligible]

Those are not mutually inclusive things.
You're right, I do not come out of web development. I don't enjoy non-web development. The benefits of OOP outside of web development has no relevance to my opinion on it. I speak as a web programmer, not as a general programmer.

A lot of web developers (specifically lower-tier ones) don't acknowledge or appreciate elements of programming that have less relevance to the web platform, so to speak. My statement was covering that generality or otherwise populace, it didn't have direct correspondence to you. Sorry if it came out that way.

I'm not going to use OOP in web development when it has no benefits in web development. Feel free to use it in other languages. I don't give a shit, 'cause I'm not using those languages, so there's no reason for me to comment on its appropriateness in them. But OOP sucks in languages like PHP.

But the applicability of OOP is universal. And as Artificial said, OOP in PHP is currently pretty solid (and after some pondering I sort of see that, too).

If you don't particularly appreciate OOP (mind your seldom use cases), then try writing a sufficiently extensive application or system. I can wholeheartedly guarantee you that you'll see a whole new world of possibilities and convenience.

And being the pedantic person I am, I'm going to go ahead and be cheeky and just reciprocate your "OOP sucks in languages like PHP" statement and tell you so does PHP. Deal with it.

My larger-scale applications do use OOP. As I said, I use it when I write an extensible feature that I want to port between projects. Most larger-scale applications share these. My issue is people who default to OOP and use it when it isn't remotely necessary or beneficial.

Do they really? Again, modularization. You can do that exact same thing with hacks or mechanisms like namespaces and modules (include is the PHP construct). If that's the only usage you can come up for OOP, then you aren't truly utilizing it.

Or I can organize things fine without OOP, and I don't see why others wouldn't be able to as well.

No one ever said it was absolutely essential to use OOP. No, it is not a necessity. It's a facility. As in, it facilitates things like development speed, subclassing, objects, and much more. These are powerful tools to a developer. It would be pretty unwise to neglect them.

Furthermore, if you want me to bring up a few "real world" use cases where OOP would prove to be significantly beneficial and actually in turn easier then by all means inquire.

I am no OOP evangelist. I'm simply a man (read: manly man!) who sees a myriad of benefits to something obviously beneficial - that being OOP.

[GAMEchief]

I'm not sure what you are implying by bringing up modularization. The vast majority of PHP projects use it. Do you think I just have a single file? Single-functions are put into modules, yes. That's why I said OOP is good for when multiple functions share parameters, which a namespace is good for if there will only be one instance used, but in the event there will be multiple instances, OOP it up. But that is rarely. And again, too many people use OOP where it doesn't need to be used, or where it isn't beneficial -- such as, as you said, modularization or namespaces are more efficient. It's like you are arguing with me by agreement.

When I say I hate OOP, I am speaking against the general reaction to OO in web development, which has in my experience been "USE MORE OF IT ALL THE TIME" -- Stack Overflow discussions or reddit threads, mostly. Not necessarily anything I've seen here. I speak out of hyperbole. An overexaggerated reaction to a seemingly exaggerated idea of its efficiency.

[The Unintelligible]

Coming from a procedural background (Digression: I started programming from null using AutoIt to create "hacks" for Gaia Online games), I can mostly relate to your sentiments on OOP.

But I think we can more or less agree that saying "OOP sucks" generally does more than raise a few eyebrows. There's pros and cons to OOP like in any imperfect system. I'm focusing mainly on its pros rather than cons. This seems like a relevant discussion on that subject. oop - Pros and Cons of using object oriented programming for progress openedge - Stack Overflow

I think the conclusion being here is that OOP probably isn't suitable for anything and everything. But where it is suitable, the opportunity cost is too great to not use it.